Sorry for any offence...

[Paul Jones]

I hesitated about posting this, but decided to go with it. It's not an 'easy' subject, but I think we've already had lots of those.

The brief is to post ONE image that portrays 'erotic photography'.

I'm sorry if this theme upsets one or two people - but we're all adults aren't we?

You'll know that I recently started a competition on here on the theme of 'erotic photography'. The competition attracted entries from nine of our members. See - viewtopic.php?f=7&t=664

It was reported at tonight's Committee meeting that some ADAPS members had felt that the competition should not have been allowed and that some had found some of the photographs posted offensive and thought they should have been removed.

It was further stated that some members feel there is too much nudity being displayed on the website and that ADAPS has now got a "bad reputation" as a club that enjoys nude photography (as if that in itself is 'bad'). The inference being that I have helped to cause this as I'm the main one who posts nude images.

I've actually been through this before. Up until 2007 I used to enter portraits and glamour shots in the club's monthly and annual competitions - and actually won a few trophies. I was then made aware that some felt the club was getting a "bad reputation" as a glamour club. I stopped entering print competitions.

I'd like to sincerely apologise to anyone that I have offended. When I set the competition theme I did hesitate in case anyone took offence. I personally didn't see anything actually pornographic in any of the images posted. I'm not in favour of photographic censorship, however I'll not pass any further comment.

I wouldn't want to do anything to harm the club. I really enjoy being part of it. I joined ADAPS when it had just 25 members and set about designing the website to attract more people into the club. It's been great to see the club prosper to the stage where we're now approaching 80 members and one of the top 10 clubs in the region.

I'm not going to stop photographing what I enjoy. I'm not particularly into natural history, sport, aeroplanes or steam trains, but I wouldn't ask anyone to stop photographing them (though I also realise that there's little chance that such images would cause offence). My dilemma though is if glamour images and nudes are now frowned upon for fear of damaging the club's reputation (though one does have to wonder why?) I don't know where to go from here.

[John]

I can understand your feelings Paul.

There have actually been no complaints received from members though and we have received no complaints from the web either. I have heard nothing negative in my travels around L&CPU clubs. In fact. nobody has ever commented.

Don't forget though that we will never please all of the people all of the time and disapproval may be voiced by individuals who are also entitled to their opinions. I get plenty of disapproval!

You have nothing to apologise for.

[Theo Dibbits]

Paul
I suggest you stop worrying.
The quality of your pictures is outstanding, in particular the glamour ones (my opinion) and they should take their place next to the other categories.
I just picked up the "digital SLR user magazine" at Tesco and it contains 6 pages of nude female photography complete with lighting advise etc..
The quality of the pictures is nowhere near as good as yours.

Because the web is open to every one around the world maybe it would be an idea to put "Contains Nudity" in the title when posting this type of photograph.
(that will make sure it gets more hits then any other )
Folk who do not wish to view this can leave it alone.

As a sideline the article in the magazine has been written for idiots. The opening page has big arrows labelled:
The model - naked woman
The main light - Elinchrom with a 3ft x 3ft soft box on it
The photographer - bloke with a camera in his hand
We would never have guessed any of these.

Theo

[Mike]

I am not offended and think that you should continue with the photography you like. People who are offended by nakedness have the option of not viewing the photographs!

Also if anyone is offended with the range of categories then they will have to take more photographs and get them uploaded . . . . that will always help to balence out any perceived slant.

[sunsworth]

Erotic doesn't mean nude. Erotic is about suggestion, it's all in the mind.

I can't say I've seen anything here that's come near to offending me, but we all vary. The biggest complaint I would have about 'erotic' photography - and I'm not picking on any one photographer here - is how boring and cliched it can be, perfect airbrushed skin, over reliance on softboxes etc.

Good job Mapplethorpe wasn't a member <grin>.

[oakeycoke]

Hi all,

I'm going to start this reply off from a different tack, and its relevance will become apparent shortly.

Like Theo I bought "Digital SLR User Magazine from Tesco', for a number of reasons, it was shrink wrapped and included 'Photo Pro Magazine' free (£4.25 normally) plus I was attracted by the 42 page guide to portraits.

There's an article in it by Chris Weston (Landscape Photographer) on high contrast and he talks about SDR and CDR (dynamic range) and the use of neutral density filters, quite enlightening(no pun intended) even for non amatuers.

The Portrait part, has actually got some useful info, especially with regard to lenses, where it has 4 pages on them alone and mentions the 85mm f/1.8, using macro lenses for portraits. 42 pages on one subject for a normal consumer mag is actually pretty good, normally you only get a few pages going over the same old stuff and there's a seperate beginners article on flash-guns, plus a test on the Canon 5D Mk11 and the small Panasonic G1.

So where is this leading? Well I would say that the magazine is offering the best value for money of the normal non-specialist camera magazines this month and so I would recommend it. Now if you read Theo's reply above you might think the magazine is rubbish and written for idiots. Its all a matter of opinion and the same applies to most things including nude/erotic photography. I actually agree with Theo about the nude photo pages in the magazine and Paul's photos are in a class way above them.

We have in the club a diverse membership and some excellent photographers, Des and Myra for landscapes, Sue for flowers, Len for mono prints, Keith for HDR, Paul for glamour, Peter for artistic smoke, Bert for motorcycles and widlife and I could go on, however these very same people can also produce outstanding photographs in other areas. Paul with his red sailed boat tying for 1st with one of his glamour shots in competition for example. There are many members who's names I forgot or dont know who also produce excellent work and i'm sure all the membership gains from this diversity in talent and enthusiasm.

To Paul I would say you are doing and have done an excellent job not only with the website but also with your photography, I personally have not been offended by any of the photos, but when you've seen people's brains and body parts smashed to pieces, or a 5yr old having been run over by a van then it does take a lot more than nudity to offend. Actually I know for Des and others its extremelly hard to produce a good landscape, being there at the right time, in the right place, with the right light can be all of a few seconds in a whole year to get 'that' shot. Like wise with Paul, its not as hard maybe to get a model in a studio, but it takes a lot of skill and experience and that 'eye' or 'feel' to light a model how you want and get the expression and feeling you want.

I was thinking it may be appropriate to have an agreed kind of sensorship not to show the genital area, but then again I don't think any of the photos on the club web site have, Len Mc's does come maybe a little close in the erotic competition and in fact I think that if his photo had been cropped immediately under the apple it would have been more erotic (leaving something for the imagination). Then again the apple should have been red and the model should have been lying in the snow to account for her goose pimples, but thats only my opinion. No offence to you Len just happened to pick your photo to emphasis a point, when the wife saw the one Tony had submitted her reply was '------- thats awful, she's showing all her stretch marks!' .

We all have different opinions, views and believes and these are influenced from our childhood and upbringing and its not easy to change those views when they are ingrained.

So what's the answer? I wish I knew, I've made a suggestion, but should there be any sensorship at all, probably not. I have seen on other forums/websites similar discussions, and one possibility that springs to mind is:

'would you like to see that photo displayed on your own wall or would you take offence or be shocked if you saw it on some one else's'.

However peoples opinions and views are different, I wouldn't wont to see anyone leave the club on this issue, especially not Paul.

My tuppence worth, well about half a crown, god I can rabbit!

Phil.

[pammie]

Well I for one would not like to see Paul stop coming to ADAPS, or feel he cannot show his work at he club. I wouldn't like to see anyone feel as though they had to leave or stop entering competitions because some other members might not like the images presented because it is perceived to give the club a "reputation"; or because "we don't want to be seen as that type of club" - whatever that means.

I have already been made aware that one of my pictures, which scored 9.5 in a club competition, would not be considered for the pot of images from which to pick entries for inter-club battles, because it was of a nude. The reason given (if I remember correctly - and please correct me if I am mistaken) was it might be embarassing for a judge. The judge on the competition night was obviously not embarassed. At the time, I just let this go, but it would be interesting to see if this print could win valuable points in a battle, or whether it would be judged in a negative way because of the subject.

I think that as a club, we should be happy that we are successful and have a large and growing membership; how many other clubs can say that at the present time? As a large club, there will be a wide range of preferences about subjects, genres and styles of images that will be seen. I don't feel that anyone should be made to feel as though their own photographic preferences are in some way not suitable, or derogatory and bringing the club into "disrepute".

No doubt this thread will run and run........

[Lee Bold]

You only need browse around other club websites to see that nude photography is not just within our club and that as i seem to remember the battle we held at adaps against wigan there was a nude entered by wigan and that the judge was far from embarassed. These people judge this kind of work all the time, it has become a normal way of life.
I mean, to see an enhance image of david beckham in his skimpies looking at me from a billboard poster could be percieved as erotic for some people but the actual art is in the lighting and shapes that are formed within in the image and that it has been captured very well as in the beckham picture.
The other night on BBC 4 i happened apon a program that followed the photographer Rankin around copying 7 photographs that changed photography. One of the images was of a suited lady in a french cobbled street smoking a ciggie for a fashion magazine, but then they stick a naked women behind the first lady and low and behold it then becomes an art image. Not because it shows all the lady bits but because of the way in which it was done, it created emotion and made people take note and actually discuss what they thought.
Even my wife has said that some of the nude images i have produced, which are no were near pauls standard would like them framed for on the stairs wall as a sort of series.
I for one will enter some of these images in the future comps to see if i am technically getting better.
Lee

[HarryG]

Here we go again; soon the only photography in which we will be allowed to indulge, is the family budgie, providing objections are not raised by Animal Rights.
Erotic photography is an art, and has been with us since the inception of photography, and before that through the medium of oil paints. True erotic photography requires great photographic skill to enable the photographer to convey the passions and emotions that are present between himself and his subject. Sadly, such talent and skills I find frustratingly elusive.
Eroticism is an emotional, natural response to a stimulus which quite frankly is there to make the world go round and is why we find the opposite sex so attractive. It doesn’t have to be overtly sexual, some women find the eyes of a man exiting or even his smile, surely no one will suggest to counter this, that men, should be photographed only in dark glasses with an unhappy face.
Is it not hypocrisy that the same people who find fault with all that is erotic, can dress a two year old in a two piece costume and yet lie next to her, topless. How many find offence at the showing of breasts and yet are quite proud to go out for the evening, displaying a casmic cleavage.
Erotic photography is not pornography and only an illiterate bigot would confuse the two. The following link shows a picture of Jane Russell. This picture was taken to promote a film ‘The Outlaw’. The picture was banned for a time because of its erotic nature.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29539606@N ... 7/#preview

To the pure – all things are pure
H

[bert haddock]

Paul,
I don't think you have anything to apologise for, I frequently talk to members of other clubs and they enjoy viewing your photos on the website and admire your work, I know that you will carry on doing what you want to do and please carry on entering the cub competitions, as we need as diverse a range of images as possible, we all take photos for our own pleasure and if our choice of subjects are not to everyones taste TUFF, I wish I had a pound for everytime a judge has said NOT ANOTHER MOTORBIKE or A BIRD ON A STICK but I will still carry on taking them, as has already been stated we have a good membership of active photographers who are capable of producing as good if not better work than some pro photographers I know, we all appreciate the work you have contributed to the superb website and I feel sorry that you think you have to make any apology when I am sure you have the support of 99.99% of the membership, my daughters view the website and they have only ever said how much they enjoy looking at such a variety of quality images,

Paul, carry on your good work,
Regards Bert.

[Tracey McGovern]

Like Paul's topic for the competition this thread is also proving a hot topic for discussion. From all the forum competitions I have entered, the "Erotic Photography" was by for the most challenging and thought provoking and the most discussed amongst members. I was torn between the balance of what's acceptable and what isn't, as eroticism is very subjective to each individual and what's acceptible to one person isn't to another. I think Paul was brave to chose the topic, it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea and it was interesting to see who would take up the challenge and post a picture. I entered on the last minute, mainly because I hadn't got anything suitable in my stock so had to deliberately take the photo for the competition, it really made me think about the image and how I wanted it to look and feel.

We are all adults and as photographers we should be able to shoot practically anything without it causing offence, I am certainly not offended by anything I have seen at the club and I have not heard of any complaints by anyone either inside or outside the club.

I think it's good that we have got such a mixed bag of talent covering just about every subject under the sun which is probably what has helped us to become the successful club that we are. I think Paul should continue to take the pictures he enjoys taking, he has got a real flair and talent for it and his pictures are outstanding. I just felt a bit sad when he said he stopped entering competitions for fear of upsetting anyone, that's such a shame, no-one should have to feel like that about their work.

Tracey

[john miller]

Paul, I myself have done nude photography,( albeit a few years ago ) but found I was,nt very good at it. You are good at it Paul so ignore the rumours and carry on doing what you do best.

[Peaton]

Tracy’s quote (he has got a real flair and talent for it and his pictures are outstanding.)

John Ms quote (You are good at it Paul so ignore the rumours and carry on doing what you do best.)

I could fill the page, picking out quotes.

Keep up the good work Paul, I only wish I had the confidence behind the camera, the flair, imagination and expertise that you show.

PS let’s be seeing some in competition.

Best regards

Peter

[Andrew Shepherd]

Hi Paul

I agree with everyone's comments and cannot add anything which hasn't already been said - you've obviously got a lot of support and you have no need to apologise. The quality of your work is tasteful and fantastic and you should not be dis-heartened - you may recall when I first met you/discussed this with you I thought you were professional specialising in this area.

From my point of view, the only reason I didn't enter the erotic competition is that I've never done it, had no photos, didn't have a willing model and didn't want to trouble you all with a picture of me in the buff (tastefully of course)!! The genre is, however, something that I want to try, as do many of the members and I admire where you have already got to in this area.

It would be great to see you enter the competitions again - your images will do the talking.

Andrew

[Wendy M]

I though the 'erotic' competition photos were great. Its a shame some people are offended but open any newspaper/magazine or switch over the TV and there is often far worse on show!

If some people only want to view fields and flowers, that's up to them, but photography is art and without repeating all of what has been said above, people have been looking at nude images for centuries - fact.

I do agree it may be a good idea to put a warning in the title about nude images in future - most websites do this (although you would think it was obvious already from the title of the thread but never mind.....)

Keep up the good work Paul!

x