Sorry for any offence...

[Paul Jones]

Thank-you to everyone for your replies. I'm grateful to you all for taking time to post.

I was aware from the outset that erotica and nudity doesn't sit well with everyone. It is a sensitive subject and I'm not criticising anyone for having an opposing view. I am sorry that it caused some upset. It's never been my intention to shock for the sake of it. We are all entitled to our opinions and to feel the way we do, as long as no laws are broken. That's part of living in a free society.

I'll just respond to a few points that were raised...

Because the web is open to every one around the world maybe it would be an idea to put "Contains Nudity" in the title when posting this type of photograph.

That's a good point and one I'll take onboard. Though if you look at my recent posts in the Images Forum, I'd have thought the content was self-explanatory anyway:

"Competition #28: Erotic Photography"
"Images for comment - latest glamour"
"Images for comment - 'Nude'"

if anyone is offended with the range of categories then they will have to take more photographs and get them uploaded . . . .

Agreed. My main reason for starting the recent image posts was in my role as Forum Administrator to try to encourage more people to post photos in the Images Forum, rather than just having the competitions. I actually posted a message in the Admin Forum (private area) to that effect.
So come on ...... let's see more of your landscapes, sport, natural history, portraits, etc!

Erotic doesn't mean nude. Erotic is about suggestion, it's all in the mind.
The biggest complaint I would have about 'erotic' photography is how boring and cliched it can be, perfect airbrushed skin, over reliance on softboxes etc.
Good job Mapplethorpe wasn't a member <grin>.

Agreed again.
And, yes, I know I'm unashamedly guilty of 'airbrushing' in many cases and make no apology for it.
Though I am taking onboard lots of different influences and inspirations now.
One of my favourite recent book purchases:

"The New Erotic Photography"
http://www.taschen.com/pages/en/catalog ... graphy.htm

I was thinking it may be appropriate to have an agreed kind of sensorship not to show the genital area, but then again I don't think any of the photos on the club web site have...

Thanks for a very thought out reply Phil. I appreciate your comments.
Although I do practise some form of 'self-censorship' with regard to the images I choose to display, I personally wouldn't be in favour of any 'official' censorship or club policy on censorship though. Providing that an image doesn't break any laws I can't see why it shouldn't be displayed.
One of my images in the "Images for comment - 'Nude'" thread clearly shows the model's pubic area. As a professional nude model she had no problem showing it.
Two very well respected photographers - Bailey and Rankin - put on an exhibition involving female genitalia (see "Bailey and Rankin Down Under" - http://www.baileyrankin.co.uk ) Art or Porn?

I have already been made aware that one of my pictures, which scored 9.5 in a club competition, would not be considered for the pot of images from which to pick entries for inter-club battles, because it was of a nude. The reason given (if I remember correctly - and please correct me if I am mistaken) was it might be embarassing for a judge.

Now things like this just seem utterly ridiculous to me. Another case of Political Correctness gone mad?
Despite what I've said earlier, I'm now feeling a little inclined to enter some prints that would REALLY REALLY shock a judge...

The other night on BBC 4 i happened apon a program that followed the photographer Rankin around copying 7 photographs that changed photography. One of the images was of a suited lady in a french cobbled street smoking a ciggie for a fashion magazine, but then they stick a naked women behind the first lady and low and behold it then becomes an art image. Not because it shows all the lady bits but because of the way in which it was done...

It was an excellent programme. I'd like to see more like that on TV.
The image referred to was a classic by Helmut Newton. Like Robert Mapplethorpe (mentioned by Steve), he would possibly upset the odd judge.

I feel sorry that you think you have to make any apology when I am sure you have the support of 99.99% of the membership...

Thanks Bert.
I hope that's the case. Though I am mindul of the 0.01% (or perhaps more?)

It was perhaps this thing of the club "gaining a bad reputation" that got to me though.
As if I'm to blame?
And indeed, as if nude and erotic photography is somehow shameful?
I don't mingle in L&CPU circles so can't say what other clubs are thinking about ADAPS, if anything.
I know that I don't lie awake at night worrying about what Wigan, Leigh, Bolton and other Camera Clubs are getting upto...

From all the forum competitions I have entered, the "Erotic Photography" was by for the most challenging and thought provoking
I entered on the last minute, mainly because I hadn't got anything suitable in my stock so had to deliberately take the photo for the competition, it really made me think about the image and how I wanted it to look and feel.

Thanks Tracey
That was EXACTLY what I was hoping for.
Perhaps photography shouldn't be 'easy' all the time. A challenge is good for the soul.
I'm glad that it made you go out and take a photo.
Your photo was excellent and a near winner.

I though the 'erotic' competition photos were great. Its a shame some people are offended but open any newspaper/magazine or switch over the TV and there is often far worse on show!
I do agree it may be a good idea to put a warning in the title about nude images in future - most websites do this (although you would think it was obvious already from the title of the thread but never mind.....)

Thanks Wendy. It's lovely to hear from you.
Good points.
(You were missed at the Post-Christmas Meal)


Well, thanks again for all your contributions.

If anyone else has anything to add, please do so.

If anyone DOES have any objections to what's been posted or said please feel free to join in. An opposing view is welcome.

I'll have to give this more thought........

[Alan Duckworth]

I was going to make an entry but can't think of anything useful to say, that hasn't already been said in the foregoing , other than, I was not aware that a nude photo had been discounted, because it was a nude. I always thought that it was photographic quality that counted. It just shows how naive I am. There again I don't enter many competitions. If people are offended by glamour etc., will they be scandalised by my collection of war plane pictures. Far more people have been damaged by bombs tumbling out of the belly of a Lancaster, or the rocket rails of a F105G Thunderchief, than by looking at the naked female, of for that matter male form. Personally I shall continue taking photographs of what interests me, and I would urge Paul to continue taking what Interests him. A subject in which he is multi talented. I am a lot older then he, and have been taking photographs a lot longer, but if given a chance, would benefit from learning from him.
I seem to remember a comment from someone that nudes were always female. The remedy for that is in the hands of the club members, take some male nudes and display the results.
Photography is a matter of preference and it should be fun if you don't enjoy doing what you do, why do it?
To paraphrase some body famous 'You can please all of the people for some of the time, you can please some of the people for all of the time, but you can't please all of the people for all of the time.'
If people don't like your work, so what, as long it is for a real reason, not because they are offended by the content.
Personally I don't like out of focus prints, but would vociferously defend the authors right to produce it. I enjoy looking at other peoples work, whatever it is. I may not like it, as I have said, and been criticised for, at a recent folio, but I defend a photographers right to produce it and my right to dislike it, and what is more, to say so.
I can say, that I have been a member of ADAPS for ??? years, and can honestly say that in all the prints I have seen, I have disliked many, but have never been offended by the content of a picture.
Nil illigitimi carborundum,
Alan Duckworth.

[John]

May I just clarify that a print has not been excluded from a competition for being a nude or anyhthing else.

I'm only half privy to this, but as I understand it a nude was not chosen for a battle on the grounds that judges tend not to mark them highly, and of course one (dubious?) reason for the battles is to Win! I don't think it was because "the judge might be embarrassed" or that it was a nude per se. Prints are not chosen for lots of reasons, mainly because the objective is to find images that grab the attention quickly and get high marks.

I hope that clarifies it, because it's not an issue in the context of this thread and may be more of a badly articulated reason being given to the photographer, who in any event tells me they are not upset by it.

The use of some Latin by myself and Alan gives away that we both went to the same school....

[cameraclix]

Being a professional erotic photographer, who was kindly invited to talk to your club & very well received, I am needless to say going to be a little biased towards eroticism!

However, Paul's predicament is far from new and I have suffered it on many occasions. When I teach classes and individuals how to compose and produce erotic photographs I spend a long time, before any cameras are taken out of their cases, talking about "what is eroticism?". In my teaching, eroticism is "that which causes a sexual response" and this may or may not involve nudity.

Being able to produce the "Nude" has been held as the pinnacle of artistic skill since the time of Leonardo D'Vinci, although various statues and paintings were over-painted in Victorian times to conceal areas of human anatomy that were considered offensive to view in that time. Last night I went to see a film starring Kate Winslet called "The Reader" for which I believe she has won or been nominated for many prestigious awards. The first section of the film was more sexually explicit than I have seen in many years, involving sights of the male genitalia, sexual acts and female nudity. I was taken aback, to discover that the film was rated by the British Board of Film Censors to be suitable viewing for persons aged 15 and above! Being in the prime of my life (40+) the level of sex education I received at school or my sexual awareness when I was only 15 years old was evidently massively different from that available to youngsters today. Do we judge what we see by the training of our childhoods or by the society in which we bring our children up today? ...this is NOT an easy question to answer (I wasn't always a photographer and have spent many hours discussing law & ethics for publications)

If we accept "Nudity" as being widely acceptable throughout art history and that being photographers we are also aspiring artists, then nudity shouldn't be a problem

So, let's move the problem on to that other stumbling block, "eroticism". This can be far more thorny than simple nudity and for which there is a valid discussion point to be had. I do believe it right for an organisation, such as yourselves, to consider areas of potential disagreement and to formulate ways to accept or deny them. However, this requires negotiation with all parties for and against rather than arbitrary decisions or comments made, with little thought for their impact on others. In any negotiation, you seek to find common ground on which to build resolution, rather than picking out difficulties or disagreements from the outset which rarely leads to a happy or satisfactory end.

Eroticism has many forms and some would consider the concept to be a slippery slope from which we cannot turn back or escape. To those people, I would ask you to consider how erotic is it to bite into a strawberry or slice of kiwi fruit when your subject is fully clothed? These are two of the most popular erotic themes used in the food advertising industry and are guaranteed to make your mouth water and to give you a warm, feel-good glow about your body. This is the sexual response but do YOU consider it sexual when only involving fruit? Sexuality and photographic eroticism are major players in the multi-billion pound global advertising industry and are used by all the big players...just think about some of the TV and billboard ads for Marks & Spencer's Food??? Sex sells and is widely accepted as such.

Perhaps our problem here revolves more around "genitalia". The word itself sound crude and uncompromising. Personally, it's one of my professional criteria and one that I make plain to all potential clients..."I don't shoot genitalia, so don't ask". There are plenty of photographers who do but I don't. I personally don't find it an attractive area to photograph. However, I have been in plenty of high street London galleries where they have been very evidently displayed. Also, as a subject area genitalia seem to be surprisingly common in the work or new artists, straight out of famous Art College's...so maybe society is changing here too, maybe my views are old and outdated?

Several years ago I applied to one of the larger Manchester galleries to have a solo exhibition of my erotic nudes. A photographic colleague of mine also applied. He will remain nameless, as aside from walking off with my Pentax 645 and enlarger, I find his work to be "extremely" offensive and pornographic. He photographs contorted females nude, prints them and them brutalises the prints in a very graphic and sexual manner. I view his work and wonder what sort of a childhood he had. However, his work was accepted as "original" and displayed in the public gallery, whilst mine was rejected for lacking creativity. Since that exhibition he has exhibited at several other of the North West's & London's premier galleries.

I haven't set about to answer this question, rather to encourage people to think about it in a wider context and with some perspective. Personally, I think Paul is a brilliant glamour photographer and I've even asked him to teach me!...how many of you have asked the same?

Whatever we write is neither right nor wrong but it is an opinion & part of a discussion that allows the possibility for greater understanding and growth.

Thank You for reading this.

John Lyons
http://www.girlzart.co.uk

[cameraclix]

Paul spoke to me about the possibility of introducing the erotic nude as a competition, on the night my erotic nudes were warmly received at your club. I encouraged him to do this...

...so, maybe some people would prefer to shout at me rather than at Paul???

Kind Regards

John

[Paul Jones]

I haven't set about to answer this question, rather to encourage people to think about it in a wider context and with some perspective. Personally, I think Paul is a brilliant glamour photographer and I've even asked him to teach me!...how many of you have asked the same?

Whatever we write is neither right nor wrong but it is an opinion & part of a discussion that allows the possibility for greater understanding and growth.

Paul spoke to me about the possibility of introducing the erotic nude as a competition, on the night my erotic nudes were warmly received at your club. I encouraged him to do this........so, maybe some people would prefer to shout at me rather than at Paul???

Hi John

Thank-you for such an erudite response. I'm flattered by your very gracious comments about me.

I'd been thinking about setting an erotic competition for some time and just waiting for my turn to come up to give it a go. Tracey's response to it was exactly what I was hoping for - that some would rise to the challenge of it.

Best regards

Paul

[jane-f]

Hi paul

would just like to say keep up the good work,
i dont think your pictures are offencive at all, before i joined this forum,
i looked through a few of the members sites and i quite enjoyed looking at the work you have done,
to me its an art form, in this day and age we shouldnt be ashamed of looking at peoples bodys,
weather that be on tv or a picture someones taken,
if someone wants to take offence, then tbh thats there problem - they dont have to look.

Jane