Judging and November prints comp.

[Janice Freeman]

I have to query whether the judge having the prints prior to the competition is the right thing to do - or even within the spirit of judging. As I understand it, this doesn't happen in the major comps so why should it be allowed at club level? I wonder if this is the same judge that requested this the last time - and then found that some of the prints actually looked so much better under the proper lighting conditions rather than in his own back kitchen! I appreciate that judging is not an easy task - especially when there is large entry with diverse subject matter. A judge who is undertaking the task properly and fairly should see images for the first time on the night and then make his decision on what is placed before him/her. There are generally 12 elements (as I understand it) to the judging process - one of these being impact. Having the print before the day surely has a major effect on the initial impact and can heavily sway judgement. Spontaneity lost! For this reason, I will not be entering the November comp.

I also make comment on what I consider to be a very poor standard of judge at the October digital event. Purely my opinion - but the judging standards went out of the window and eventually boiled down to his personal likes and dislikes. Surely we must have had other complaints about both these issues? I make this observation not because I scored badly (which I didn't) but because I feel strongly that images that were stunning, but not to his taste, were dismissed without proper standards being applied. We will all have a gripe about judges at some time and for many different reasons but I would hope that a poorly performing judge would not be invited to the club again.

[Paul Jones]

I also make comment on what I consider to be a very poor standard of judge at the October digital event. Purely my opinion - but the judging standards went out of the window and eventually boiled down to his personal likes and dislikes. Surely we must have had other complaints about both these issues? I make this observation not because I scored badly (which I didn't) but because I feel strongly that images that were stunning, but not to his taste, were dismissed without proper standards being applied. We will all have a gripe about judges at some time and for many different reasons but I would hope that a poorly performing judge would not be invited to the club again.

I'm glad it wasn't just me then. I thought he was so bad I actually left early and went home, something I've never done before in 20 years.

It was actually the first time I'd entered a club competition for a while, but the October experience has convinced me that I wasn't missing anything.

[Janice Freeman]

I hope that does not deter you Paul, your work should be seen.

[John]

It's always been a point for discussion. Should the judge see the images before the night or not.

If seen prior then it is said to offer the chance for proper consideration and evaluation. The more subtle images may be appreciated better.

If done on the night there is the freshness and impact of seeing the images for the first time, and under the proper conditions.

When voted on the result has been inconclusive, about 50/50 for and against.

I did a judging a few days ago and was sent all the images as digital files. From these, I did a preliminary judging, but the actual judging was done on the night. This made the most difference to the prints, as some prints do not look very good when seen as a digital file.

Speaking as a judge, I will happily judge either way, whatever a club wants, but will always make the final decision based on what is shown on the easel or the club's projector, as appropriate.

Sorry to hear you didn't like the last judging, but the next one is a new night and a different judge. It still gives a chance for our images to be seen by everyone.

[Paul Jones]

I hope that does not deter you Paul, your work should be seen.

I usually update my website two or three times a month.
http://www.pauljones.org/

[Alan Duckworth]

Not very long ago it was normal practice for the prints/slides to be delivered to the judge a week or so prior to the competition, judging on the night is a fairly recent thing. I make no comment as to which is preferable as I very rarely enter competitions.

[mikeaspinall]

There are always two sides to any argument/discussion and as usual neither are right or wrong in my opinion.
Last month the judge on the night painted himself into a corner by taking too long on the first three quarters entries and then
gave short shrift on the later ones. As it happens my best picture was one of the last five so hardly got a mention. My tough luck.
If he had had the images beforehand would he have been able to measure the time for every picture? Possibly yes or possibly no. He
wasn't the best judge we have had whichever way it went.
As John said if the judge has, in this case, the prints in advance he/she would be able to take time to look more closely at them
and to prepare a more helpful critique of them. I think that 'impact' would still be made but also subtleness in the image not usually
noticed 'on the night'. On the other side of the coin is a different scenario where the judge hasn't seen the prints in our lighting set up.
Some time ago we had a judge who let us know what his wife made of an image and we certainly don't want that.
This month's judge is the lady who judged our recent battle at Blackburn and who was well received by everybody on that evening as being
both very good and very fair.
Janice - I would encourage you to put your entries into the competition. You are the one who will lose out if you don't and at the end of the
day we enter the monthlies to see each other's pictures but mainly to hear what is said about our own.
Just my opinion for what it's worth.

[Simon-vtr]

While the can of worms has been opened I too was not happy with the Judge on Thursday despite not having any entry's in the competition myself I noted that the Judge passed comment on missing elbows missing tops of heads and missing eyes plus lots of advise of cropping etc but yet the top five pictures had missing elbows missing eyes and the bottom part of a subject saxophone which had been cropped off. Altogether very inconsistent judging and I have two agree with Janice that the judge should only see the prints or digital images on the night. Ps no offence to the people who to the time to enter the competition and were in the final selection

[John]

I think we need to separate out not agreeing with a judge, and ultimately the judge's decision is final anyway, and seeing a connection between that and whether or not images are seen previously or on the night. It wouldn't make judging any more consistent one way or the other necessarily, and whether it was an advantage one way or another might also depend on the judge.

At one time pictures were always delivered a week or two in advance. That was the norm and was seen to afford a chance to be more thoughtful about the process and therefore more consistent. There was a great resistance to the idea of a judge seeing images for the first time on the night, although it has now become much more common.

Given that our annuals have always been judged in advance and it hasn't raised any comment I'm interested in what is the perceived advantage of a judge doing the whole job on the night? Let's be clear that I personally don't mind either way, but it would be useful to have the discussion and see why some prefer the idea of on the night judging?

[Paul Jones]

I'd actually now question whether camera club competitions have had their day. Are they still relevant to today's photography?

Are we really so interested in hearing the opinions of grey haired old men and women who have been spouting the same old camera club cliches for the past 20 years and who can't see further than the 'Camera Club Competition Judging for Dummies' rule book?

I question the whole premise of awarding scores to photographs. This photograph is worth 17 and that one's worth 19.... It's silly. In actual fact most people think they can tell a good photo from a bad one, but it's all just OPINION. We've all seen instances where judges have picked their winners purely because they like steam trains or butterflies.

By all means have photography appraisals and give suggestions as to why you like a photo or think another one could be improved, but you can do that without awarding scores, trophies or stars.

Have I become jaded by the whole camera club competition circuit? Yes. Especially after the October judging farce. Photography has moved on and there are so many styles of photography out in the real world, outside of the camera club timewarp.

PS. No offence to John or our own judges.



"The main character is too central. He should be on the third... I'll give it 15 out of 20."



"She doesn't look too happy, does she? There's no catchlight in the eyes. I'll give it 14."



"Hmmmm, I just don't understand what the 'author' is trying to convey here. I'll give it 12. Maybe take it again without the apple...?"

[John]

Which judge could possibly take offence at that Paul!

The point I disagree on is that we are grown past competitions. Yes, maybe those who now know what they are doing are. On the other hand those looking for guidance and ways to improve should benefit from the spur that competition gives them.

I'm not defending bad judging, or judging that can't recognise artistic content, but I think there's a place for it.

As for that dreadful girl with no eyebrows, well...I'll have to give her a 20 even if she is a fake. (To understand that sentence watch Doctor Who: City of Death).......