Competition Gallery

[BydoR9]

Hi guys,

Just had a look at the recent image gallery and was surprised to see my 16 scoring Times Square on there. Then I noticed lower scoring images down to as low as 13!

Unless there's been a change of rules/policy this is surely a mistake. Shouldn't it be 18 or higher scoring images only (17s too when there is only a few high scoring).

If it is a change of rules then surely it's a poor decision, as the kudos of being in the gallery is that you acheived a high score.

Andy.

[John]

It was never a rule Andy, I just decided that this time we might have a look at the whole competition. Just having the scores of 18 and above would have made life a lot easier but would have left very few images to look at.

Hopefully the real kudos is in having a high scoring image, although sharing our images is for many a major part of entering a competition. I would argue that seeing them all is instructive, showing both what is and what isn't successful in this instance.

However, I'm also very happy to receive opinions on it, we are are always trying to offer refinement and improvement.

[BydoR9]

I'm sure you can gather my opinion is that it's a poor decision - lets leave poor decisions to the judges!

It is a competition gallery after all, is it not? Showing all the entries is like awarding all the kids on sports day, medals just for taking part.

Incidentally, I have done poorly this season - in the old way of showcasing high scoring entries I would only have one image in the gallery after being three months into the season, so I have no personal agenda.

I also have a couple of other points to raise too:

1. I was under the impression (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you cannot enter the print competition now unless you also submit DPIs. Seeing as five of the entries are currently missing from the gallery would suggest that they were not originally provided, I also noticed this on Thursday night.

2. Much as I love the spitfire image, and I was quite vocal about it's very unfair low score (personally I think it deserved a 19/20 mark), it has already been in a monthly competition this season and therefore should have been disqualified.

Thanks,
Andy.

[John]

I can answer the two points you raise.

Regarding the DPI's accompanying the prints, this is for two reasons. First is so a slide show can be run before the actual print competition, which helps those who can't see any detail in prints from the back of the room. Ultimately this will have to be a strict condition of entry as the principle has been well received by those affected and we will run with it. This is month 2 and as we are all friends at ADAPS a little leeway has been allowed until everyone gets used to the new requirements. The second is of course so we have all the images for the Gallery.

As regards the plane shot, there is more than one version of this, so hopefully the second one is the alternative shot. Normally you are correct and used once an image can't be used in another monthly competition. It can be used in an annual or a set subject if desired. The photographer can confirm or otherwise if the image was indeed the different shot.

The other point you raised is received and understood. I'll wait and see if anyone else has any comments. Personally I think it depends on how we define the function of the competition Gallery. Is it a gallery of entries or a gallery of winners? Which is most useful or most desired by the general membership? Given we can't do it both ways, we'll see what the consensus is.

[BydoR9]

Hi John,

Thanks for the info. Don't want to go on too much about all this, but I've compared the two Spitfire images and they seem exactly the same to me. I'm certain it's just an oversight by all involved.

I take your point about giving some leeway to submitting DPIs with prints for the first few comps.

In terms of my original querie, would it not be a good idea to just leave the monthly comp gallery for 18s and over (as it were) - Maybe we could periodically have a gallery featuring a focus on individual member's images like you do in the year book?

Just a thought.
Cheers
Andy.

[keith richardson]

Hi,
Well I expect that anyone who knows me will know already that I totally agree with Andy on this subject.
The Gallery should be reserved for high scoring images only.

I know that this goes against my policy of not letting a judge pick the images that we use in battles, by letting the judge technically pick what images will go into the Gallery. But the winners of a competition are the winners regardless, so whatever we think of the judges decision these images have the right to be shown in a gallery reserved for that purpose.

The idea that it is ' instructive to show what is and isn't successful in a competition' is totally lost on me I am afraid. That's like doing a talk and only showing which of your images were the least successful and that failed to get anywhere, and considering it 'Instructive'?

In the latest gallery, there are 40 images and the outright winner is sat at position number 31, with no mention that it was the winner in any case. Visitors are not going to want to wade through the entire Gallery to find out which was the winner. And in the digital competitions when there could be 80 or more images, what then? Will all 80 images be shown, with the winning image three rows from the end?

The whole point of the website and particularly the Gallery is to give a brief idea to visitors of what we do as a club and particularly how good we are.

It is supposed to impress visitors and make them think..

A: From the look of the images in this clubs gallery, this is obviously a top quality club with some very fine members producing some excellent work, and I want to be part of that.

B : If I join this club then maybe I can, in time come to be as good as these images show, and maybe one day I will have my images included on the Gallery.

C: This club takes serious pride in how it looks to the outside world, and expects a high standard of work from it's membership. Implying in the process that if you join this club, we can get you up there to a standard where you will be proud to show your images on our Gallery and share the stage with the best.

It is not supposed to show that if you join this club, then no matter what you decide to put in this clubs competitions, and no matter how badly it scores, then this club will parade it on their website for all the world to see, alongside much better and more deserving images, with no discernible difference, despite the fact that the image next to yours may have scored 6 or 7 points more.

Visitors won't wade through all of the images and figure out for themselves that we are a club that shows the work of all our members regardless. They will take one look at the overall collection, see a set of images that could be considered by them to be mediocre and assume that this is the best that we can do as a club. They may very well assume that if we have shown 40 images in the gallery then there were possible another 40 or 50 images that were even worse, that didn't make it into the Gallery, and what message would that convey to the casual visitor??

If consensus is needed on this matter then maybe we should bring it up at the next meeting for a quick show of hands from all of the members?

Keith.

[Paul Jones]

As regards the plane shot, there is more than one version of this, so hopefully the second one is the alternative shot.

I suppose technically one could take 10 similar shots of a plane, a steam train, a bird, a flower or a person and submit them each in different competitions. We trust the Competition Secretary to manage the competitions in the best way they see fit according to the rules.

The Gallery is supposed to impress visitors and make them think..

C: This club takes serious pride in how it looks to the outside world, and expects a high standard of work from it's membership. Implying in the process that if you join this club, we can get you up there to a standard where you will be proud to show your images on our Gallery and share the stage with the best.

I can understand what you're trying to say, but the way you've phrased this does smack a little of elitism. At least, to me.

... no matter what you decide to put in this clubs competitions, and no matter how badly it scores, then this club will parade it on their website for all the world to see, alongside much better and more deserving images, with no discernible difference, despite the fact that the image next to yours may have scored 6 or 7 points more.

Of course, the scores, and whether an image is 'better' than another, are only the opinion of one person. There's images in the gallery that if I were judging wouldn't have deserved the scores they achieved. It's all subjective.

If consensus is needed on this matter then maybe we should bring it up at the next meeting for a quick show of hands from all of the members?

And maybe ask them how many of them want to volunteer to give up their time to manage the website as well. Personally, I don't see a need to have a club vote. We don't ask the club to vote on how competitions are run. Instead we leave it to the Competition Secretary.


I can actually see both sides to this argument. It's good to show a cross-section of images, yet it's also good to recognise success. I would suggest:

- If it can be done, display the winner and the second/third placed images in positions 1,2,3 in the gallery template
- Limit the gallery to images which scored, say, 16/17 or higher

[Gordon Armstrong]

Perhaps I could join this conversation.

I enter the competitions in the full knowledge that I can't compete with the elite members who will score 18 and above. I know that my images are not going to be chosen for external competitions or battles. I enjoy seeing the range of images entered in the club competitions and I usually learn something from the judge. I don't know how the images were achieved, but who knows, if I gaze long enough at the winning images I might magically improve my photography.

We are a club of mixed abilities and ambitions. It hadn't occurred to me that the website was there to attract only excellent photographers. I do support the suggestion that we should be working with members to improve their photography (if that is what they want).

I agree that the current gallery isn't well structured and it isn't obvious who the high scores were. It is possibly confusing to change the criteria for the gallery each month and the dpi and the annuals might generate too many images to put them all in.

We could have two galleries each month - one for the winners and one tucked away quietly in the depths of the website for the also rans. We could add a column to the entry form where we have the option for do not publish to specify only publish in the elite section.

Perhaps we could also deal with possible errors in entries with a quiet word with the member or the competition secretary rather than all over the forum - not a good impression for potential members.

Gordon

[John]

It hadn't occurred to me that the website was there to attract only excellent photographers

It isn't. It's there to encourage, store useful club information, and a whole host of other things as well, but most definitely not to be an elitist corner of the photographic world. There are no elite members, just members.

ADAPS has always had a policy of being as inclusive as possible, and taking as diverse a view of photography as it can.

All are welcome!

[John]

Just as an afterthought, in case anybody didn't realise if you click on a thumbnail on a gallery page then a full sized image will open. The caption will tell us the mark achieved and usually does include the word WINNER if appropriate. The use the arrow keys to move through the images. Sometimes things can get missed, especially when sat at the computer beyond midnight to bring these images to the world in a timely manner......they can also be corrected if brought to my attention. If you look at the page of competitions you will also see that the winner is the Featured Image and this ought to be the one that appears on the link on Facebook. Sometimes that doesn't work as intended, so it's under investigation.

The new galleries are actually a different world better than the Coppermine gallery we had previously, but it all soon gets forgotten.

In any event it's constantly a work in progress and all comments are being genuinely noted.

[BydoR9]

I dont see anything wrong with pointing out errors on the forum, it isn't a personal dig, in this particular case it does seem to be the exact same Spitfire image, as far as I can see - no disrespect to the author, to whom I will mention again, I love this photograph.

I do disagree with Gordon and Paul here. What is wrong with our club striving to be excellent? There is no elitism involved for me, if one of the three useless judges we have had recently happen to have awarded some debatable 18s, 19s and 20s - it's not for us to say otherwise - we should just display those winners/high achievers as they deserve the honour and not to get lost amongst all the other entrants in a massive gallery.

I don't believe the current gallery system is particularly confusing either - well it wasnt until now anyway! The suggestion to start splitting it out into a winners gallery and a taking part gallery etc is just even more confusing, not to mention more work.

In the interest of inclusivity, every paid up member is welcome to enter the comps and many improve year on year OR are pretty good out of the gate. We all had to start somewhere. Mixed abilities and mixed ambitions are all fine, that's what any club is all about and I take no issue with this - no one forces anyone to enter competitions, but for those with the 'ambition' they are a good thing.

Andy

[Paul Jones]

I do disagree with Gordon and Paul here. What is wrong with our club striving to be excellent? There is no elitism involved for me...

That's not what I said.

[John]

All judges do the best they can and deserve our support, don't forget that they give up their time voluntarily and only charge travelling expenses.

I realise that sometimes we may disagree with some things said or with the points awarded, but in the end the judge's decision is final and that does need to be respected.

[BydoR9]

I don't disagree with anything you say there about the judges john. I thought I made the point clear that their word is final and it's all just opinions anyway. I know they give up their time for the love of it etc. However, I think we can all agree that some judges undoubtabley are of a better standard than others - thats life though I guess.

It would be nice to see more younger judges coming through in years to come, who have more modern tastes, less preconceptions and are more open minded about current photography trends.

Andy

[mikeaspinall]

For what it's worth my five pennyworth.

If my arithmetic is correct the following might be of interest/boredom to some.
If you only had 18+ for the Gallery then only 6 prints would have qualified in November. but if 17 points were included then 16 images instead.
In October 15 images all scoring 18+
in September 12 images including five 17 pointers
in March 11 images all 18+ and
February 18 images all 18+

This more than anything shows up the vagaries of the Judges. I remember a couple of judges who used 16 points
as there bench mark so perhaps we could now consider 17+ as contenders for the Gallery.

Just a thought.