L&CPU ANNUALS

[mikeaspinall]

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I was unable to show these images last night at the Gentlemen's Evening so taking the opportunity here.
The L&CPU hold Annual competitions for both clubs and individuals scored as usual by 3 judges giving up to 5 points per image
so maximum score of 15 points. We had the same system at the Ladies Evening. This image was the icing on the cake for my entries as it scored
13 points PLUS a certificate. Only a total of nine entries reached this in the mono section . Here you have a before and after taken on a Nikon
compact at Boring Blackpool. As there were approx. 800 entries in this section I'm claiming joint 9th place (there were 8 images which scored higher than 13 points).
Tracey also won a certificate and the G.G. got two but he is a greedy so and so. We had five of our members entering in both club and individual namely:-
Tracey, The Big Man (Keith), Andy, Gerry and Me so I was in good (best) company.
What I would have liked to say last night is that as a 'snapshotter' over seventy, if I can do it so can others so let's have more members having a go so
that we can see ADAPS name being seen.

[Tracey McGovern]

Hi Mike

Cracking image and you have converted it from colour to mono extremely well with a clever crop to gain the best composition and made use of an otherwise bland sky, I'm just sorry we didn't get to see your other images but will have to wait in anticipation until October.

Tracey

PS - Stop being so modest, you do extremely well in the competitions and have made a big contribution to putting ADAPS on the map

[John]

You will have your chance to show the images Mike, but in the meantime great that you've posted this. It's a terrific image and well worth the recognition it received.

Your photography gets better and better!

[mikeaspinall]

Many thanks Tracey and John. Great praise indeed.
Although it's always nice to get compliments ( I like most folk do have an ego) the point that I was
trying to make is that you have to enter competitions if you want to get better.
The thing about the L&CPU is that you don't have to worry about Judge's comments as they are scored
differently from our Monthly comps. You just have to accept that they are looked at for only a few seconds
before being voted on so need the X factor (whatever that is) to attract attention. I intended to demonstrate
this with my entries showing how they had done in ADAPS and how they were scored at the L&CPU.
Having said that I would like to see many more members entering our Monthly competitions as it's the way to
learn but also why not take advantage of Tomorrow nights critique with the GG and Jaryd who want to help others.
As to my 'snapshotter' comment Tracey it fits me very nicely when I make a comparison with say, You, Keith, Andy
and of course Gerry. I have been taking pictures for fifty years so some good should have rubbed off by now but
I think that there are many members at least my standard who could do as well if only they had the nerve/courage
to put their pictures in the comps.

[Paul Jones]

I think that there are many members at least my standard who could do as well if only they had the nerve/courage
to put their pictures in the comps.

What I would have liked to say last night is that as a 'snapshotter' over seventy, if I can do it so can others so let's have more members having a go so
that we can see ADAPS name being seen.

Indeed. Competitions are a staple ingredient of most camera clubs and always fun nights.

I understand why you've posted this Mike and it's admirable that you want to encourage more members to get involved in competitions and show their images.

The Forum Team is always trying to encourage more people to post more images. Let's see your images folks - on the forum and in competitions.

Although it's always nice to get compliments ( I like most folk do have an ego) the point that I was
trying to make is that you have to enter competitions if you want to get better.

Notwithstanding my comments above, although I appreciate the point you're trying to make, I'm going to disagree with you here Mike.

Entering competitions is ONE way to get better. And if you mean "get better at producing images that win competitions" then, yes, one needs to enter. But there's a whole wide world of photography outside of camera club competitions and salons.

One of the best ways to "get better at photography" is to get out, practice, enjoy making images for oneself and forging ones own style. This sometimes means producing photographs that are far removed from the usual competition entries.

Sorry for being argumentative.

[mikeaspinall]

Hi Paul
No problem and of course you are quite right. Competition is not for everyone and isn't always necessary to improve
your photography. It has worked for me though.
My pictures have improved over the last 12 months because of the monthly comps. and being with better photographers
so I suppose that I rather hoped that others could do the same. As you say getting out and taking pictures is the best way
but sooner or later you need to know that you are getting better and the monthlies are a good way of doing this.
Years ago I played badminton which was fun but when I started to play in league matches my standard improved radically.
I suppose that I was a little disappointed last Thursday to miss out on my stuff. Also that out of a club of our size only five
members bothered to enter the L&CPU.
If my comments encourage others to do that then I have achieved my goal.
Cheers.

[Stu B]

you have to enter competitions if you want to get better.

Sorry Michael, but in my opinion, this statement is complete and utter rubbish, In fact, the truth is. It makes you a sterile photographer, Producing "camera club" images that may appeal to a judge. Who like it or not, posses no professional judging qualifications. Expresses their own personal views on your image. How many times have I heard in the club, Just because one judge doesn't like an image, Doesn't mean they all will.

Yes, you could assume. That if, your annual score over a season, has improved. It would be safe to say. You have pleased more judges than the previous year. So you would derive from this that you were improving.

The point I wanted to make was, ADAPS has now been a club for 75 years. In all of these years the club has held monthly competitions. Looking at the current ADAPS yearbook. As a yardstick. Has having those monthly competitions improved the club standard over those 75 years ? Take a close look. In my opinion it has not.

Why when the club takes on an associate club in a "Battle." Do the entries for the club come from so few of the members ? When the club boasts so many members.

The secret to moving the club standard forward. Is surely to have a collective knowledge base as a club. Doing things as a club. Rather than a few individuals consistently out performing the rest to win a monthly.

I of course write this reply. As someone who doesn't enter monthly competitions. I have never seen the point personally, As I feel, I myself am my own fiercest critic, and quite capable of analysing my own images, to see if they are improving .

[John]

Interesting if a little harsh Stuart. Probably it's safe to say that it depends on the individual. Some will improve their standards by competing. I know I did, including getting out in the wider world of the internet. Anyone who cares to can look back up to eight years on ePHOTOzine to see whether or not I have improved.

As for judges, some do have training and expertise that's far wider than camera clubs. Some don't, it's true, but they all offer their time for free. They don't have to do that, so at least we can acknowledge that they are trying to help.

Many people think they are not necessarily the best judges of their own pictures, often finding someone else will point out a previously unseen defect. Often we may get carried away with our liking a particular image, because of its personal meaning to us. Have you never found that to be the case?

[Stu B]

Thanks for the reply John. I take your points. It wasn't my intention to have a go at judges in particular. Your correct to say they do an admiral job. I also see nothing wrong in a club holding a monthly competition between its membership. They are obviously enjoyed by many. They can also be responsible for building many an inflated ego, and destroying some too..

The point I reacted to, was that you have to take part to become a better photographer,,,, Not so.

As you quite rightly state, We can, and do use the internet to post images. Many images a day if need be. Where our piers, friends and public alike, can all pass their views on what they see. In fact a world wide audience in minutes of finalising an image. So, more images than the three a month a club competition allows. A world wide audience, not just a single judge. Giving their opinions once a month. So in a nutshell. If views and opinions are what are needed. I think that by using the internet. Its possible to improve my photography skills at a far greater speed than that of a camera club.

Yes I will concede its different for a print competition.

[Paul Jones]

My pictures have improved over the last 12 months because of the monthly comps. and being with better photographers
so I suppose that I rather hoped that others could do the same.

As you say getting out and taking pictures is the best way
but sooner or later you need to know that you are getting better and the monthlies are a good way of doing this.

Years ago I played badminton which was fun but when I started to play in league matches my standard improved radically.

I suppose that I was a little disappointed last Thursday to miss out on my stuff. Also that out of a club of our size only five
members bothered to enter the L&CPU.

I've no argument with any of that Mike. And I applaud your efforts.

It's not easy to get everyone involved:

- Some will feel they aren't 'good enough'
- Some will feel nervous
- Some will have been there and done it all before
- Some will just feel no need to compete

[mikeaspinall]

OOPS

I seem to have opened a can of worms here which certainly wasn't my intention. If I put anything on the
Forum in future I will try to be more careful with my words.
My words have been rubbished and my 'inflated ego' pricked so I will retire and go lick my wounds.

Michael

[Tracey McGovern]

Mike

There were nothing wrong with your words, in my opinion you have no wounds to lick, you were just trying to encourage other members to get involved with competing, if they wished, and using the competitions as one avenue to explore with a view to trying to improve their pictures. I have to agree with you in that competing helped me enormously to improve my images too, they helped me to see the flaws in the image that I didn't initially see myself and seeing other peoples images helped me with mine. It's horses for courses but you were right to air your opinions as they were valid. You should be proud of what you have achieved, your work has improved enormously not just in any judges mind but more importantly in your own and that's the important thing here.

Tracey

[Paul Jones]

I seem to have opened a can of worms here which certainly wasn't my intention.

There's no can of worms Mike. In fact, it's good that your post started a debate. That's one of the reasons for the forum.

To reiterate, I think it's great to see the way you want to encourage our members to get involved.

It's horses for courses but you were right to air your opinions as they were valid.

Absolutely.

[John]

Nothing to feel bad about Mike, you did just fine. Keep it up!

[keith richardson]

Hi,
Not been online for a few days but back now, and just seen this post. As competition secretary I feel there are a lot of points raised here that need adressing.
Firstly, thank you mike for posting your images, at the start, I have obviously seen the mono one before and it still looks as good.

Judges are invariably well qualified photographers who have taken the time and effort to learn there craft and now pass it on to help others, they take on and pass a selection process via the L&CPU before being allowed to judge any competitions. Salon judges are invariably internationally renowned photographers who work at a consistently high level of photography,
We don't just ask any tom dick or harry walking down the high street to pop in and pass his opinion. A judge will invarably, even on the 'elite' members, point out things that you miss when you look yourself. This helps many members, especially new members to learn not just basic photographic skills like composition and lighting, but to learn to look at their pictures from a new angle. This habit helps all of us to improve. Deciding that you are the 'best possible' judge of your own images makes no sense whatsoever.

Personally I also don't see the benefit of asking your mates on facebook what they think, or your mates on flickr or ephotozine, where your image is usually judged by how many friends you have, and 'tit for tat' judging where you get votes based on how many times you bother to comment on other peoples images, not on the image itself.

When we have a battle against another club, it is my job to select the best possible entry for us to win. It would be nice to have an image from every member of the club, but it is not practical. The members whose pictures get selected are invariably the ones who tend to enter more competitions and therefore give us more images to select from. These members by their very nature also tend to be the ones who do well in the monthlies, the two go hand in hand, nothing to do with elitism or having a select group.
One of our best club images last year came from a member who only entered one image all year. That image was judged good enough by us to be used in all the inter club battles since.
So if an image is good enough, it will be used, regardless of who took it.
In the past the club did seem to have an unwritten policy of trying to include a wider range of more members images, encouraging members to participate, and to be frank we got snotted.
This year we have set our stall out at using only what we consider the best selection, regardless of the author, and we have gone racing up the rankings as a result.
This is good for the club.Isn't it?
Even if it looks like we are only there because of 'a few members who consistently outperform the rest'. These are also usually the members who enter salons and external competitions like the one Mike started this thread to highlight. They tend therefore, like it or not, to work at a higher level, and therefore their images are selected first.

regards, keith.